Ask Away: Storytelling in Marketing, Mark Goren -- Part One

Last week I invited Mark Goren of Transmission Content + Creative to host a conversation with me here.

Mark is truly passionate about marketing -- look at the root word, mark is in it, as in making a mark. A self-defined educator on the importance and power of developing a solid presence in new media, Mark's style is very collaborative. He even came up with a logo for this series of exchanges between bloggers. Feel free to borrow it for your conversations (with attribution to him, of course). 

Mark Goren: Earlier this week, you emailed me a list of questions. One of them was: Why is storytelling so compelling in marketing? Since you're known as Conversation Agent, why not give me your take on this question and we'll take things from there.

Eagerly anticipating our first exchange!

Valeria Maltoni: How about: Storytelling is the backbone of our ability to remember and transmit information by compressing it into manageable chunks. We are able to edit the information we receive to suit our needs. We edit to make it simple and concrete. As we do that, we tend to recall and include the pieces of information that match our worldview and, by doing so, we rewrite some of what we hear to suit our thinking.

That's why marketing would be a nonstarter without storytelling.

Mark Goren: Exactly. Storytelling –- and having a good brand story –- is about helping people relate to a brand as it pertains to them. Like you say, "edit the information we receive to suit our needs." I like that notion because it recognizes how important it is to allow people to connect to a story in their own way. A story is not preachy, it's not top-down and corporate – it allows for interpretation and it can evolve. If there's one area where marketers can do better, it's in recognizing that their efforts can evolve organically – and that not everything has to go according to a set-in-stone plan. Your take?

Valeria Maltoni: I think the best stories are those that inspire action. Remember when you were a child and saw a movie, then spent the rest of the day continuing the story in your environment and head? That to me is what organic means. The original pre-packaged story is only the start of a conversation with the people who join in. The confusion begins when the company thinks they need to control every aspect of how its products and services are viewed in the market from the get go. Trust is built over time. As we talk about evolution and trust, I'm reminded that these are fluid concepts closer to our hearts than our minds. Is it a little bit of both? How do you fit measurement in the equation?

Mark Goren: Funny you should bring up the movie example, Valeria. I watched Rocky Balboa twice this weekend (a nice Philadelphia reference for you) and can't get some of the scenes out of my head. The music, the images, the story. So your analogy is perfectly timed, very true –- and we're back to storytelling.

So how do we fit measurement into the equation? Interesting that you write, "trust is built over time" and then ask about measurement. If trust is built over time –- and it is -– then measuring the effectiveness of any marketing effort has to respect the time factor. In other words, you can't put up a blog (for example) and ditch it after two months if it's not achieving "stated objectives". The onus is on the marketer to make the blog relevant to the target –- and finding the right combination may take time.

What are your thoughts on measurement? And what about on tweaking vs. scrapping and starting again?

To be continued... Join the conversation with Mark in the comments. What are your thoughts on measurement and marketing as storytelling?

Comments

[Bob Glaza]

Hello Mark, Hello Valeria - I seem to stumble on measurement - what is it we want to measure? Is it a concrete number like bottom line? Is it more elusive like customer loyalty? How about return visits? Of course it varies by organization and stated goals. Plus each of the factors we choose to measure become part of the overall story. At some level, maybe its like the scenes that make up a movie - don't you think? We do have, as marketers, have this need to quantify things :). Good points about sticking with a blog, Mark - not something to try out, then abandon, if the results aren't what you want. So far as tweaking or abandoning, hmmmm ? - that depends...but I'm not too sure what it depends upon. Nice format this ask ? away

[Matt Dickman]

Valeria and Mark -- Great idea you guys (though I would expect nothing less). There is definitely a balancing with measurement. Some short term (short sighted?) goals are easier to measure. Page views, interaction rate, length of visit. A marketing manager may ask for purchase conversions and abandons and nothing else.

The real marketers here are looking more long term. Brand engagement, customer loyalty, likelihood to spread good word of mouth. These are more difficult (not impossible) to measure, but they require 2, 5, 10 year measurement plans and not 10, 15, 30 day measurement plans.

How can/should we balance the two? Products have to sell, TV has to run, websites need to go up. But how do we move toward measuring the things that are important?

[Valeria Maltoni]

Bob -- I think each path into the customer conversation needs a different type of measurement. Some are easier to produce than others. I'm so glad you joined this conversation, these are great questions. Which brings me to what Matt says.

Matt -- if we talk about knowledge and what resonates with people, then also which content gets the most exposure, links, comments, there are any numbers of metrics we are all using with our blogs already. I begin with permission to be in the conversation and then work on stepping it up over time. You raise the vital point of balance: short term gain to be around in the long term relationship. KDA Research in California (see my post of Friday) is doing some pretty interesting qualitative research using interactive tools. Sort of modified versions of blogs. They want to capture unfiltered, real time reactions to products and services. Maybe I can get Steve August to chat with us at some point.

How about you, Mark. What is your take?

[Mark Goren]

Here I am, everyone.

Of course, when it comes to measurement, the key, as you all agree, is to know what you're measuring. And, as Toby Bloomberg wrote late last week: "Good relationships should impact your bottom line".

And that's where you're headed too, Valeria.

So let's measure the variables that affect long-term relationships, the variables that reflect why and how people react, how they interact, learn from what we can see and adjust as we go along.

Did anyone here happen to read Greg Verdino's post last week about failing your way to success in viral marketing? Here's the kicker: "You need to produce lots of content, try different things, and get them into the marketplace for reaction. And you can't get discouraged, at least not after one attempt."

I think that's perfect. What do you guys think?

Toby's post: http://tinyurl.com/22rad6

Greg's post: http://tinyurl.com/2cz92h

[Steve Roesler]

Valeria and Mark,

Terrific idea and the conversation is already stimulating or renewing connections about marketing, relationships and, one of my favorites: time.

Let's face it: whenever we're building trust through relationships, and then asking people to invest in what we're doing, there is a timeline involved.

The instantaneous nature of the web still doesn't trump the desire for a "consumer" to trust someone before becoming a paying customer.

Looking forward to tomorrow...

[Mark Goren]

Been thinking a lot about the time factor recently and here's my philosophy: You've got to work like you'll never be fired. People who worry about their jobs think only in the short-term. If they can achieve positive short-term results, they figure they'll be safe.

Thing is, real relationships take the long-term to form. But focusing on the long-term isn't attractive, particularly if you're running scared.

It's kind of like the coach or GM of a pro sports team. Some think long-term, build up the farm and harvest talent. Others trade for the here and now and are left with nothing for the future.

Same thing goes for building relationships and measuring your objectives. If you're only thinking about now, you won't have much to build on tomorrow.

Steve, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this one.

[Valeria Maltoni]

Steve -- great timing, you will see that we're carrying the conversation to the theme you introduce here today.

Mark -- I've integrated these great comments and your links in part deux today. Great example about short term thinking and long term planning.

[mchale]

This is the first time I am adding my voice to this discussion. It's due to the fact that I have had an epiphany, if you will about the importance of social media, or whatever you would prefer to call it.

I think the cumulative effect of reading the voices here, as well as my respect for them has definitely added to it. However it was Ms. Maltoni's example of gift giving to clients and inserting her card that illuminated the relevance of what everyone here is talking about. That follow-up she referred to is key. I'm still not convinced this always leads to a company's success though I do believe it probably leads the company away from failure as much as realistically possible.

I also think that bringing in "storytelling" into this dialogue was critical to me and that factor makes me believe that by emphasizing "storytelling media" may get a wider net of people to understand what social media is all about.

A question I have about this is whether people are telling a story every time they blog or respond to one. I don't think they are. Much of what I read online is rationale to support a person's view that their story is superior rather than telling the story itself. The de-railing factor to successful storytellling is that often times they did not fully express or tell their story to its fullest comprehension. Because of this, people do not understand where they are coming from. Storytelling after all is an art.

Had a listener previously known an amateur storyteller's story, they would understand where the person is coming from better. That doesn't mean they would agree. It just means they would "get" where the person is coming from.

From there, (and this is something I need to think about) my first impression is that at a certain point storytelling ends and story-rationalizing ping pong begins. Doesn't the insertion of strong "justification" into a conversation stop the dialogue or potential sidetrack a story from being fully told?; especially if the listener thinks the rationale/justification of the storyteller's story is unfair, or not in the realm of possibility?

Secondly, is a story being told in a question?

mchale

[Mark Goren]

Mchale: Great questions, let me give answering you a try.

It depends how you define story. If you accept that a story can evolve, then you can think of a blog as justification for that story (a great way to think about it), but also as clarification, editing and rewriting that story too.

I know that I believe certain things and that a great many things I write on my blog I have strong opinions about. But the beauty of it all is being able to have these conversations and allowing your story to evolve through the opinions, facts and conversations of/with others.

It's natural to want to justify what you're thinking – what's unnatural is to believe it to be wholeheartedly true. Good marketers are out here asking to be challenged – and not assuming that what they say is the gospel.

[Valeria Maltoni]

Tim:

Two things, first I think you are correct, most of us business people tend to want to get to the "and here's is why you want to buy this/us" too soon.

I believe this stems from a need to validate that we are useful in our prospects' eyes. When you're in sales, you need constant feedback on how you're doing. And we may not feel we have a whole lot of time to be building permission-based relationships.

Context in story, as you point out, is everything. That's why it takes a while for people to establish personal brands, for companies to build great product brands, etc.

Which brings me to what Mark is saying here: brand and story are participatory activities. So the more it flows out of a combination of who you are and what is perceived, the stronger the brand and story. In that case, it feels authentic.

I think a story can be told in the mental rehearsal that people have the opportunity to do when presented with a good question.

Thoughts?